Politics: Israel - Palestine. US Intervention

[travlvirgin]

OK kids i was reading an old post by DC_JESSICA titled ONE DAY in Abu Dhabi . Purely because i have just arrived in Dubai myself and thought it may be good to get a few ideas.

However at this point in time it has been all over the news here that the US is planning a massive intervention between Israel and Palestine and Bush has recently united both leaders in hope of erecting a resolution between the two. Obviously this has been going on for decades now but my question is. What do you think about the new situation.

i have alot of hope, but it hasnt seemed to help in the past. i spose since i have been here and im closer to the action and most news on tv is to do with current events in the middle east, it is very hard to ignore. I know talking about a topic like this may be a touchy issue in the forum but i was just wanting to know, from Americans especially how it appears over there and if they think this time it may be dfferent. or atleast what the world of travellers think about this. and how it impacts us.

[expatben]

Anything that can bring us closer to peace is something worth doing in my opinion. Problem is its governments jawing and not the people. I think what we need after time are cross cultural projects between citizens.

[joe7f]

I hope I am wrong but I don't see the talks going anywhere. Abbas needs to have a reconciliation with the Hamas hardliners in Gaza before he can do anything with Olmert.

Palestine was offered the West Bank and Gaza several years back. That offer was rejected. Arafat and Abbas are different people but that decision was cheered on by the population. It is pretty clear the Palestinians want all of Israel or nothing.

As far as traveling goes, I think it is already becoming safer to visit Israel. The wall along the West Bank is nearly complete and has dramatically reduced terrorism. So if you are planning a trip to Israel, safety is only a minor concern

--Joey

[expatben]

Now, is it still true that other middle eastern nations will not allow you to visit if you have an Israeli stamp? Apparently what you can do is ask the Israeli guard to stamp a piece of paper and attach it to your passport and then take it out when you cross the the border.

[lost in texas]

I don't see it going anywhere. Even before Hamas took over Gaza, the issues of dividing Jerusalem and letting people return to their homes (and by homes we mean their parents or grandparents homes) aren't likely to be resolved. I have Palestinian friends, so I know the emotional arguments for their cause, but realistically it's about as likely as we Americans returning half the country to (what's left of) the american indian tribes.

Not to venture into politics, but I'm sure President Bush wants to remembered for something other than Iraq. Any kind of success in the peace process would help his legacy. That's why every president tries.

[Canadian Bacon]

I am far too jaded by the conflict to even read about developments.

WHo are they kidding... having a peace conference without Hamas? Excluding the most powerful political player in the Palestinian territories?

The Bush Admin is off in la la land again....

CB

[maracle]

Originally Posted by expatben

Now, is it still true that other middle eastern nations will not allow you to visit if you have an Israeli stamp? Apparently what you can do is ask the Israeli guard to stamp a piece of paper and attach it to your passport and then take it out when you cross the the border.

I've read they wont do that anymore. You can get 2 US passports if you know this is going to be an issue. The US gov't wants people to either arrange their itinerary to visit Israel last, or if it is 2 separate trips get the passport reissued. But if you can't avoid it they will give you a second one that is valid for 2 years.

[voyd]

Originally Posted by lost in texas

realistically it's about as likely as we Americans returning half the country to (what's left of) the american indian tribes.

I love how Americans want to "FREE TIBET," but NOT "FREE PALESTINE," "FREE AMERICA" or "FREE AUSTRALIA."

[Canadian Bacon]

Originally Posted by expatben

Now, is it still true that other middle eastern nations will not allow you to visit if you have an Israeli stamp? Apparently what you can do is ask the Israeli guard to stamp a piece of paper and attach it to your passport and then take it out when you cross the the border.

In my summer trip, they still apparently do the paper thing.

[pinknic38]

Originally Posted by Canadian Bacon

I am far too jaded by the conflict to even read about developments.

me too. seriously. I avidly avoid anything having to do with that conflict, iraq, or afghanistan... anyting in that area or dealing with terrorism and whatever else falls under that category, I avidly avoid. I just don't even care to read about it anymore.

[lost in texas]

Originally Posted by pinknic38

me too. seriously. I avidly avoid anything having to do with that conflict, iraq, or afghanistan... anyting in that area or dealing with terrorism and whatever else falls under that category, I avidly avoid. I just don't even care to read about it anymore.

Haha... Nicole, I thought that was your job!?

[DC_Jessica]

Well, since I'm the inspiration, I wanted to weigh in. :D

I think talks going forward are good. Because they have to. I have no predictions about a resolution, because who cares if you've at least got them talking. I'm glad it's involving the Arab League. These are a subset of people all over the world who have no concept of Israel or even Judaism, who hate everything Israel and Jews (even though not every Jew is an Israeli, nor does every Jew support Israel!) stand for, just because of some twisted collective memory. My s/o has some bizarro opinions about Israel and Jews that aren't even really hateful, just ignorant. And even the way he voices them, you know he's not quite sure, but he's still confident enough about his ideas to express them.

The reason you can't get into the UAE with an Israel stamp is that they have not acknowledged Israel's existence. This is what blows my mind. Where the f*** was I for those weeks then??

General Arab opinion where I've traveled is that when there is a new Democratic President of the US, not only will Baghdad be transformed into Shangri-La, but the problems in Palestine will end. I like how they look at Democrats as their saviors, when nobody really does accomplish anything lasting, and if that ever does happen, it's got to come from the Israeli/Palestinian leaders themselves. And without massive Arab support and solutions for the Palestinians, it's not going to be easy. Now, this is me being really harsh on the Arabs, because I do more work with them than Israelis. But, the Jordanians seem to be just as responsible for the abhorrent conditions in the refugee camps as the Israelis are. Why isn't there a massive pan-Arab relief effort? Why aren't the major Arab countries going to bat for them in talks with Israel? Maybe if the UAE offered tourist treaty exchanges with Israel, they could get talks started. WITHOUT the US forcing them to.

Now, just to be fair. I think the settlements are ridiculous. And Israel has nobody to blame but itself for allowing them in the first place. They must bear the burden for settler relocation, and also the weight of having let the settlers actually settle, for a generation, without acknowledging the laws violated. My close Israeli friend agrees with the settlers, because he says it's their land. That can be fixed. End the debate - create a new Palestine. (Israel was created, not God granted...they had to fight for it over many years to get what they have today.) Draft a water treaty. Oh, and try not to assassinate your leaders who make headway on peace agreements. Tell the Hasidim to stop going to Holocaust Denial conferences with Ahmedinejad! How bout them apples? I'll tell the same thing to them (ESPECIALLY the Hasidim living in Israel) as I say to Alec Baldwin - don't like your country, help fix it or MOVE! I understand their reasoning is more deeply seeded than that and very religious, but seriously, do anti-Semites really need Jewish leaders to help them Jew-bait?

I'm rare, I think, because at heart I'm a peacenik. I like beautiful tomorrows and brotherhood. But this situation makes me sick. It's an exercise in reckless pride and senseless waste. I know there are groups working to bridge the gap, but so long as there's a sea of ignorance in how these groups treat or view each other, the problem will never be solved, not with a thousand treaties or ten thousand peace conferences.

And also, Americans here LOVE "Free Palestine." A lot of the time (at least at my university) it's a knee-jerk liberal reaction by privileged white kids who like rooting for the underdog. Not to say there aren't people who have "chosen" sides based on education and understanding - I do know people who like to know what's really going on. But I have met more people than I care to who villainize Israelis just because they have "power." And I have met plenty of Jews/Israelis who are horrified that my Arab boyfriend has prayed in my apartment and that I "allow" it.

And PS - as if I haven't ranted enough already, in my Arabic book, Jerusalem or "al-Quds" is the capital of Palestine. Israel-what?

[BigE]

From what I understand, I doubt Israel is going anywhere and the Muslims know it. Israel has NATO style solid fuel rockets with nuclear warheads pointing at every Islamic capital in the Middle East and those suckers can be launched within minutes putting turning the middle east into a radioactive wasteland for the next 500 years. For this very reason there will never be another pan-Arab invasion of Israel again. Israel will always have the upper hand and will never give Palestine what they want. These are the hard cold facts.

[voyd]

Originally Posted by DC_Jessica

(Israel was created, not God granted...they had to fight for it over many years to get what they have today.)

So, might is right and to the victor goes the spoils. And the Palestinians are simply doing what the Zionists did to get that land - fight for it. So, why should they lay down arms for peace, then? Some people value "justice" or gain over peace. Peace is simply a side-effect of JUSTICE...but if you have no JUSTICE, how can you have peace?

Ultimately, the whole idea that people can own land...is "natural" but somewhat faulty. And therein lies the root problem. Who gave Man the right to own any part of this planet (or universe) to begin with - that really belongs to all living organisms, as the Native Americans believed? Geographic borders reinforce divisions, which sow the seed for turf wars. Wars that will only get more heated as our exponential global population growth outstrips all our borders at an increasing rate...

[joe7f]

Originally Posted by voyd

So, might is right and to the victor goes the spoils. And the Palestinians are simply doing what the Zionists did to get that land - fight for it.

Well not quite...the Zionists were mostly buying land from the native Palestinians up until World War II. Even after they bought the land they were persecuted but they were outnumbered.

After World War II, the British owned Palestinian territories were given up to establish a country for Jews that were quite, and understandably, skeptical about their ability to survive in Europe.

The only problem was, the Palestinians, while technically under the rule of the British never really acknowledged that nor did it affect them. A bunch of Jews moving in and establishing a government did. Knowing how the Jews that were already there were persecuted, the Muslims thought the tables would be turned so they fled also.

Now you have two generations of Israelis that don't think of the Netherlands, Germany, Poland, the US, Somalia etc as their home. Israel is their home...period. No different than if Native Americans told ever single one of us to go back to our ancestral homeland. Kind of a problem, I don't feel any more Spanish, Irish, French, English, Scottish, Canadian, or Cuban than I do Mongolian.

If anyone is interested in a biased but interesting novel surrounding the founding of Israel, I recommend Exodus by Leon Uris.

--Joey

[Canadian Bacon]

Originally Posted by BigE

From what I understand, I doubt Israel is going anywhere and the Muslims know it. Israel has NATO style solid fuel rockets with nuclear warheads pointing at every Islamic capital in the Middle East and those suckers can be launched within minutes putting turning the middle east into a radioactive wasteland for the next 500 years. For this very reason there will never be another pan-Arab invasion of Israel again. Israel will always have the upper hand and will never give Palestine what they want. These are the hard cold facts.

Please remember that this is a political conflict. At the heart of it, it's not a Muslim vs Jew thing.

Also remember that the largest community of Jews outside of Israel in the Middle East, is in Iran.

[DC_Jessica]

I don't think might is right by any means. I just brought that up because I don't buy the argument that God endowed the land to the Israelites, and that is the reason why they can't negotiate further with the Palestinians. But on the flip side, we really have not happened on a more tangible way to claim ownership of land other than war and purchase, so it's not necessarily might is right. It's just might is a method of determination.

Which isn't quite the snappy rhyme it could be...

I know I'm a selfish butthead a lot without even meaning to be, and then I don't even get off my righteous high horse without 24 hours of buffer and consequences, so magnify that to a macro level, and you have territory wars. It's sad, but I can't reason another method.

Originally Posted by voyd

So, might is right and to the victor goes the spoils. And the Palestinians are simply doing what the Zionists did to get that land - fight for it. So, why should they lay down arms for peace, then? Some people value "justice" or gain over peace. Peace is simply a side-effect of JUSTICE...but if you have no JUSTICE, how can you have peace?

Ultimately, the whole idea that people can own land...is "natural" but somewhat faulty. And therein lies the root problem. Who gave Man the right to own any part of this planet (or universe) to begin with - that really belongs to all living organisms, as the Native Americans believed? Geographic borders reinforce divisions, which sow the seed for turf wars. Wars that will only get more heated as our exponential global population growth outstrips all our borders at an increasing rate...

[Canadian Bacon]

Originally Posted by DC_Jessica

But on the flip side, we really have not happened on a more tangible way to claim ownership of land other than war and purchase, so it's not necessarily might is right. It's just might is a method of determination.

True that, but the only way its going to happen, is if the US starts to show Israel the stick as well as the carrot, instead of being the reluctant uncle who bitches but ends up giving the newphew the money regardless of what happens.

Negotiations are only appropriate when both parties have a degree of power... right now the only 'power' the palestinians have is violence. If they give that up (as the US says they should), then there are no bargaining chips left on the table.

[voyd]

CB - Buying real estate and hijacking sovereignty are 2 different things.

I mean, owning real estate and living somewhere for 2 generations gives you the right to suddenly declare the country yours?

Why couldn't the Jews just continue living in Palestine...as "Jewish-Palestinians" under British/Palestinian rule? You had plenty of Jews emigrating throughout Europe and the US, etc. They bought land and lived for many generations. Yet, they never explicitly took over those countries and renamed them "Israel."

But, I guess it was ok for them to do that with Palestine? In a power move decided by the fledgling League of Nations...which Palestine was never a part of? As the payback for a traitorous wartime pact (Balfour Declaration of 1917), that also had nothing to do with the Palestinians?

And the US is never going to show Israel the stick. They have been the top recipient of our foreign aid since its inception.