US Healthcare, Yikes!

[NitemareHippieGirl]

I've been paying lots of bills lately for my tonsillectomy and all of the tests and shit from when I had strep throat in December which lead for the need for a tonsillectomy. I'm lucky enough to have insurance, but even with that I'm just shocked by how much I've had to pay for a routine procedure. So far I've paid a $350 downpayment to my doctor and $350 just to use the surgery center. Haven't yet recieved the rest of my doctor's bill, the bill for the anesthesiologist on top of whatever else I have to pay for.

I also just got another bill from my university's health center from when I needed antibiotics. Even though I kept telling the idiots that work there to just check my bloodwork instead of continually giving me strep tests and monospots that I TOLD THEM would come back negative, they did it anyway! With insurance and the student discount it comes to $25 for all of the tests and prescription, which isn't bad. But, I was shocked to see that without insurance getting swabbed for strep costs $40!!!! Forty bucks to pay for someone sticking a q-tip in my throat! Ugh. And I had to have it done so many times over the past four months!

Now I understand why people lose their homes when they get cancer. My boyfriend's uncle recently died because he couldn't afford to treat his cancer. I just can't understand why we're having such ridiculous fighting over the need for universal healthcare when people are being forced to choose death over getting treatment!

And I really don't understand the BS about increased waiting times with universal healthcare. When I first got strep and my throat closed in on itself and I tried to see a doctor they told me there was a month long wait. And when my boyfriend got strep (shortly after I did, coincidence?) his doctor wouldn't see him, so he had to pay $400 to get a strep test and antibiotics in the ER. When I had my surgery done they had us lined up on gurneys in an assembly line; there's no doctor-patient relationship.

Just had to let off some steam. Being this frustrated and having to pay this much for really common tests and surgeries has me worried. I'm just crossing my fingers that nothing worse ever happens to me! :eek:

Anyone have similar frustrations?

[AKguacamole]

Boy do I HEAR THAT.
I had my own medical catastrophe about 3 years back - I needed emergency surgery (that in the long run saved my life) that insurance refused to cover. This is the same insurance company my family has had for over 10 years. Mind you, the whole ordeal cost tens of thousands of dollars with surgery, meds and post treatments. It broke me hard. I'm a college student (and the parents don't pay my bills, because they can't) so I had to start making $500 monthly payments and see countless advisors, cheap lawyers, anyone to help me. I managed to lower the payments by now (after a formal lawsiut filed against me) but I estimate another 10 years before I'll have this sucker paid off.
Well that's my story. I'm sorry about your ridiculous payments, despite the insurance. This country is backwards in that sense. Taking care of your citizens is priority! You'd think someone might realize that by now, given all the wealth and development this country prides itself in.
Boo America. Do better

[MolsonGirl]

I have to admit I wouldn't know what to do if I had to pay for my health care.. both of my knee surgeries cost $40,000, so technically I have $80,000 knees... all paid for by the Ontario government. (we'll taxes obviously, but I'll never complain about those either)

[SGRHewitt]

Wow, we just got done watching Sicko(Michael Moore) literally 30 minutes ago. Jumped on here and saw this thread.

You should check out Sicko if you haven't seen it, pretty eye opening. However it is not surprising as we all have known someone or have went through hell trying to pay for health care. We being Americans of course.

[NitemareHippieGirl]

I watched the film right when it came out. It was pretty eye-opening since my parents and I hardly ever get sick. Most people I know just don't have insurance and for that reason don't go to the doctor, even when they have problems. Realizing you're screwed even if you do have health insurance, and pretty good health insurance at that is pretty frightening. And I still can't fathom the idea of NOT having to pay medical bills with universal healthcare. I mean, really? Countries with government healthcare don't pay anything when they leave the doctor (other than taxes)?

It's pretty depressing hearing the same people who think it's totally valid to pay taxes to support the war in Iraq don't want to pay taxes to keep their fellow tax-paying citizens healthy and alive. Generalized statement, I know, but seriously. If my tax money is going towards something that is helping me and my fellow Americans better ourselves, then I am all for it!

[MeTurk]

I think the health care setup in America is criminal, it actually annoys me no end that such a developed country with so much money floating around has no problems spending billions on a war in a far off land but won't spend a penny on the health of it's own citizens. That an American would be let die on the street over something that isn't a big deal in this day and age is just downright disgusting. Their are no excuses for it either, their is no argument against free health care.

Our health service in Ireland isn't prefect by any means, you could be waiting up to a year for some procedures, some people even die on waiting lists but at least they've a chance.

[mbo108]

here here. I would call American healthcare a joke if it wasn't so serious a topic. I agree with MeTurk's "criminal" tag.

[maracle]

One of the big problems is that everyone bills for way more than they expect to receive from insurance. So if you don't have insurance you're totally screwed even if you could afford what the insurance would have paid. And you know the hospitals and doctors will squeeze every dime out the uninsured they can even if it is more than they'd usually get. Two examples:

I'm taking this prescription med for about 5 months, finishing the end of June...I have to get a blood test every month to make sure it isn't affecting my liver. The bill for the test is $147, but the agreed rate with my insurance is $8. Even if you could afford the drugs and the test, you can't do it because they'll charge you 8x as much for being uninsured.

Second, last year I ruptured 2 ligaments in my thumb skiing...total amount paid to get it repaired was about $3500 which seems fairly reasonable (xrays, MRI, 2 doctors and their assistants in an OR for 2 hours, general anasthesia and a nerve block, plus half a dozen follups with my orthopedic surgeon, etc...it all adds up). But the bills were for over $16000.

The worst offender was the hospital, which billed $9960 and was actually paid $715. Kind of outrageous really, you bill 10 grand and are happy to accept 700 bucks?! The doctors were better, for example my orthopedic surgeon billed around $1500 for the surgery and got about $1250.

Anyway, there's my ranting. Up until 2 years ago I wouldn't have worried that much about being uninsured though I was lucky to always be covered by my parents insurance or university insurance. But now, I realize the slightest little injury can ruin you...

[The Monsignor]

I prefer to avoid turning my health over to the government (it's not like the government runs anything well or efficiently)

Having plenty of experience with the VA health care system, I can assure you that government-run healthcare in this country would be a nightmare!!! The waits are incredible, you don't get to see a doctor that easily, people with nothing better to do can clog up the system. You're complaining about paying for the surgery, but you also state you don't have insurance because you're almost never sick. Well, this is what happens.

In Washington state there are companies that specialize in finding doctors for Canadian patients in order to get them proper healthcare - if it was so great up there, those companies would have no market.

I can afford major medical for me and my children in this state and can buy my own plan (no employer or group thing) for $156 a month for me and my kids. It won't pay for the sniffles or a few stitches, but by god, if I get really sick, I won't lose my house.

My last employer had an all-inclusive plan, it paid for everything - it cost over 1300 per employee per month!!! Wanna know the biggest reason for employees on that plan going to the emergency room? Sore throats! They had to drop that plan because the price rose exponentially (because of the abuse)

I am currently paying $253 for me and my family, for a plan that covers fairly well through the National Guard. I haven't needed to go to a doctor (except to get a prescription renewed) in over 4 years. I could probably have spent the money better elsewhere, but that's what you have insurance for, the unknown.

I couldn't imagine mortgaging my kids future to pay for rehab for addicts, sex changes, rescuing people from their own bad lifestyle choices, controversial therapy and government red tape. I will leave my health in my own hands, thank you!!

[NitemareHippieGirl]

^ I said that I do have health insurance, but I had to pay for what my insurance wouldn't cover. I get insurance through my mom's employer because I am a full time student and under 25. But, when I do turn 25 I don't know what I'm going to do because I'm not going to be able to afford it. I'm currently lucky enough to work for a company that offers health insurance if I end up needing it, but it will come straight out of my paycheck meaning I'll be working to pay for insurance. And, god forbid, if anything should happen to me I'll have to scrape up the money to cover any copays. My insurance couldn't even completely cover routine tests for strep and mono! If something serious happens insurance isn't enough to save people from losing their homes.

The majority of the major health problems that happen in the US are caused because it is too expensive for people to get preventative treatment. Not all, but many.

Though, I do understand your point about wanting to take care of yourself and your families health and not the health of people who can't take care of themselves. But, many people can't take care of themselves because they don't have access to preventative care or the kind of knowledge only a doctor can give you about keeping yourself healthy. It would be nice if our government couldn't at least offer a universal plan they could work to reduce costs of prescriptions and preventative treatment. Unfortunately so many of our congressmen are in the pockets of the health industry that I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Definitely I would agree that government care isn't perfect, but for many people it's better than nothing.

[MissChick]

Insurance sucks I miss my Canadian health insurance so bad!!!
When we found out we were pregnant we didn't have insurance so we got on with emergency Medicaid until we get some...which means my delivery is covered but everything up till then we pay out of pocket....and its costly....we have an ultrasound on Friday thats going to cost us $300....we've paid out alot in medical bills this year and theres many more to come. Shawn finally got us insurance though his work but its not active yet and theres no saying if they will cover my prenatal visits.

[The Monsignor]

Originally Posted by NitemareHippieGirl

If something serious happens insurance isn't enough to save people from losing their homes.

The majority of the major health problems that happen in the US are caused because it is too expensive for people to get preventative treatment. Not all, but many.

The problem is that 90% of the health problems in this country are related to lifestyle, yet 95% of the public health care budget is spent on the remaining 10% of issues. Preventative care in this country is non-existent, and frankly, no insurance will cover things like people who won't stop eating, get off the couch and turn off the damned TV. And if health care is free, then every time they get a sniffle, they'll just pop in to see a doctor, using up precious resources that people who are in serious condition need (or do you think that people would willingly treat their own minor illnesses in order to preserve the health care for others who really need it...)

I don't know what kind of insurance you've got, but for $156 a month, mine comes with a million dollar limit - frankly, I can't imagine that if you needed more care than that, losing your home would be the least of your worries. The deductible is high, but it's only there to prevent me from losing my house - not to cover every sniffle I have.

Yes, paying 300 bucks for a doctor to remove your tonsils sucks, but frankly, it's a fraction of the cost and though inconvenient, you can afford it. (at minimum wage, it's what? one week's pay?)

[maracle]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that healthcare should be "free." For the insured, copays provide the economic incentive to only visit the doctor when necessary, and none of the proposals for universal healthcare would change that as far as I know.

As for the million dollar limit, that is the same limit that most policies had in the 70s. You can blow through it in a flash if you become seriously ill. For example:

MERCED, Calif. -- One day in late July, Jim Dawson happily returned home. He had spent the previous five months in the hospital battling an infection that nearly killed him. The phone rang shortly after Mr. Dawson and his wife, Loretta, entered their house.

It was the hospital. California Pacific Medical Center was calling to remind the Dawsons that they owed it $1.2 million.

Mr. Dawson, 61 years old, had health insurance through his employer, but had maxed out his plan's $1.5 million lifetime cap halfway through his long hospital stay. In addition to the bill from CPMC, Mr. Dawson owed tens of thousands of dollars more to scores of doctors who were involved in his care. Mr. Dawson and his wife's combined assets totaled a fraction of their medical debt.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1196...ml?mod=WSJBlog

This guy had top-shelf insurance through Valero, which owns the bulk of the oil refineries in the US. This article is a perfect example of my $9900 bill from the hospital being absurdly marked up:

Mrs. Dawson asked to see an itemized bill from CPMC. When she received it, she was shocked by how much the hospital had marked up inexpensive items like the stockings. CPMC charged Mr. Dawson between $2,225 and $6,675 a night for an oxygen mask to help him breathe while he slept. After he was discharged from the hospital, the Dawsons rented one from a medical-supply store for $250 a month. Mrs. Dawson resolved to try to negotiate the bill drastically down.

"I do not deny that our charges look insane," says Dr. Pont, CPMC's chief medical officer. But all hospitals operate the same way, he says. "It's the reality of the industry."

At $6000 a night for a plastic oxygen mask a million dollar cap doesn't look very safe!

[The Monsignor]

That's an awesome argument for reforming the runaway medical charges - the oxygen mask is a perfect example - they know you can't live without them - and they should be regulated (like utilities) to prevent them from gouging and charging prices that are totally out of proportion to their actual costs.

Do you think that government health care would improve this situation, magically somehow?

Insurance companies have a vested interest in controlling their costs - this particular story is unusual because the insurance companies will generally crawl through a bill from the hospital and rip them apart for charges like that - they know what this should cost as well.

The government, on the other hand, tends to not be accountable for the costs - the story of the $600 hammers are a good example of that. The government also doesn't oversee their Medicare providers very well, either.

Again, I can afford medical insurance for me and my family. It's not fantastic, but it keeps me covered in the event of an emergency. I don't want what I earn to be eaten up by paying for the emergency room visits of addicts, people who simply won't lose weight and exercise or someone who feels that it's their god-given right to see a doctor every time they have a sniffle. Copays and deductibles are an incentive to reduce visits, but I'm still paying the bills not covered by a copay.

I can afford my health insurance, have little trouble finding a doctor, and have the level of care that I and my family need. I think that universal healthcare would not be a 'fix'. Particularly since most health problems in this country are lifestyle related.

I would be more likely to support lifestyle changes - free recreation and sports programs, nutrition counseling, weight loss and healthy living programs. Let's go for the root of the problem, put a few of these doctors, hospitals and drug companies out of business and the costs will control themselves.

[pinknic38]

I'm down - the US healthcare system is a total nightmare. And I don't pay a dime since I'm in the military, but you know there's that old saying "you get what you pay for", and really if it's free, the quality is going to be sub-par.

If you are sick or injured, it becomes this big hassle in the morning, get a slip signed, miss formation to go to the clinic, and be treated like a dirt bag because you're going. And once you're there, 9 times out of 10 you don't get help on anything that is ailing you. I was barfing uncontrollably for a day or 2 and went in because I generally don't throw up (unless it's alcohol related, and even then, I could count on 1 hand how many times I've thrown up). They gave me the once-over and then prescribed me Benadryl. Are you serious? You get some random PA or someone with an MPH too, I don't even remember the last time I've seen an MD or DO.

I grew up in the healthcare field. My mom is an RN, my former stepdad is an MD, my best friend just got her Pharm D. So in general I feel like I know more than some of these clowns when I go up in there.

But that's military. I have a feeling if we did this "universal" system for everyone, you all would have similar experiences.

To play devil's advocate, I know physicians DO make a lot of money but you also have to consider the fact that they come out of med school about 200K in debt from undergrad and med school unless they were some genius. They go to residency and fellowship and make about as much as the nurses do while having to pay these student loan payments. Once they get on their feet they have this RIDICULOUS malpractice insurance they pay for, and depending on their specialty, they can pay up to 150K a YEAR. High risk specialities like Ob-gyn and surgery take the bigger hit. My former stepdad is a family practitioner and pays just under 100K a year in malpractice fees because he has had situations where patients tried to steal charts and sue him for malpractice just so they could get the money.

So I guess in a way I can understand where SOME of the costs come from, but regardless, the system we've got intact now is ridiculous.

[expatben]

Personally I support universal health care. I would rather pay more through tax and have it when I need it than pay nothing and go without. Currently I have a cavity and sometimes it hurts but guess what? All the NHS dentists have left my area and being unemployed for months now I cannot afford to see a private dentist so I suck it up until I got the money.
Universal health care is not perfect but its better than going without in my opinion.

[lauren313]

This all makes me feel bad for ever moaning about the NHS. I really feel for you guys.

[The Monsignor]

Originally Posted by expatben

Personally I support universal health care. I would rather pay more through tax and have it when I need it than pay nothing and go without. Currently I have a cavity and sometimes it hurts but guess what? All the NHS dentists have left my area and being unemployed for months now I cannot afford to see a private dentist so I suck it up until I got the money.
Universal health care is not perfect but its better than going without in my opinion.

That one confuses me - you can't get treatment for a toothache? but you still find it better than covering your own insurance?

I can get treatment, even unemployed, through either financing/payment plans, or through state vouchers which lowball the providers but do solve the problem. Of course, then again, I can go get a job with Starbucks, and after 90 days (even part-time) I'm eligible for their health plan and that would cover me as well.

In order to compare, we really need to see just how much of your paychecks go to NHS payments (if your taxes are even broken out that way)

One of the problems with universal health care is that we're already mortgaged to the hilt in this country on future obligations that the government has already committed us to - social security, federal pensions and medicare (which is health care for senior citizens and to a degree the indigent)

Right now, future obligations in this country total about half a million dollars per household - with no real plan to cut back other services to fund them. http://www.usatoday.com/news/washing...axpayers_x.htm

That's 57.8 trillion dollars in unfunded obligations. The war, even at the most wild and pessimistic estimate, is at a cost of only 1 trillion. We're talking about adding only 79 million people to the rolls - now let's think about the costs when we change that number to 300 million people??

The government has already mortgaged my and my children's future to pay for my father's retirement. I can't afford to pay for the promises my government has already made. I live within my means - and provide my own healthcare - how can I, in all conscience, agree to spend my children's future further into the hole?

I agree that universal health care is a great idea. I don't agree that the government should be involved with it at all.

[expatben]

Not really many affordable payment plans especially when you consider my non existent in goings and my other outgoings. Also we don't really have health insurance like you guys do because we have socialized medicine-the feeling is if you want the private alternative you pay for it. I think this is the best system because if you are opposed to it and want to pay for better treatment you still can.
Luckily I am told there are going to be some NHS dentists back in my area so I can get it sorted out soon.

[MeTurk]

Originally Posted by The Monsignor

I prefer to avoid turning my health over to the government (it's not like the government runs anything well or efficiently)

Having plenty of experience with the VA health care system, I can assure you that government-run healthcare in this country would be a nightmare!!! The waits are incredible, you don't get to see a doctor that easily, people with nothing better to do can clog up the system. You're complaining about paying for the surgery, but you also state you don't have insurance because you're almost never sick. Well, this is what happens.


I couldn't imagine mortgaging my kids future to pay for rehab for addicts, sex changes, rescuing people from their own bad lifestyle choices, controversial therapy and government red tape. I will leave my health in my own hands, thank you!!

Sex changes and the likes wouldn't be covered by a national health service. Plastic surgery (unless it's for someone who's been in an accident) isn't covered.

To get free hospital visits you have to go to your GP first (which you pay for unless you have a medical card) and your GP organises any hospital visit that they think you need.

Going to emergency without seeing a GP first can land you with a big bill. GPs are responsible for ensuring the hospitals get used properly.

I don't understand how people can be against free healthcare. Are you really saying in these turbulent times when recessions are looming that if worst came to worst and you couldn't afford health insurance, then god forbid something happens to you or one of your family that you'd rather get turned away from a hospital than accept free healthcare?